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March 2010 Posts
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[1:05:45] Join Bo, Ryan, Shannon, and special guest Chris Paine, creator of "Who Killed the Electric Car" for a great discussion and this week's EV news!
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The LEAF distribution sounds familiar... Lease...what then Recall and Crush?Let's hope not!
Eric.
quote comment
Hi Bo, Ryan & Shannon,Great show! I Think Rick form Texas is still unclear with his explanation.JohnM
Oh No John. Rick was one hundred percent clear. If you say he was unclear, he will call back in and explain again. So Rick was one hundred percent clear and we don't need any more explanation.
John C. Briggs
Rick did not explicitly say it, but the configuration he was referring to was to have an electric motor and a gasoline generator with no battery. Without the battery in the system to store energy and meet peak demand from the electric motor, the gasoline generator would have to have massive capacity.
I hope this clears it up and puts this issue to rest. Rick is absolutely correct. He just didn't clarify the difference between the Volt (battery included) and a vehicle that only has a gasoline generator to provide electricity for the motor.
Josh
Josh,
Your absolutely right about the generator motor configuration. I should have been clear from the start that the car I was describing was a car with an electric generator rated at 12 KW fed into a car in a series circuit without a battery pack to provide stored energy for instant acceleration. If you limit yourself to the generator you will find that the car will take anywhere from 40 to 50 seconds to get from 0 to 60. A comfortable 0 to 60 acceleration range would be from 8 to 12 seconds. There's a website that will do the math for you. Go to http://www.060calculator.com and type in 16 in the horsepower field (12,000 watts from the generator / 750 watts (rounded from 745 watts for watts per 1 hp)) 3520 for the curb weight of the vehicle (The Chevy Volt's curb weight) and press the Calculate 0 to 60 Time. You will get the answer 51.68006490089756 seconds.
BTW, in the late Bob Brant book, Build your own electric vehicle, he writes you need at least 20 hp to maintain cruising speed so even a 16 hp generator is a little on the lean side. That's close to 15 KW for the generator.
Rick,
To follow up on your comment...
The Li batteries can produce up to 20 times their capacity instantaneously. So for the Leaf's battery pack of 24 kWh that is 240 kW. That would be a big generator. The motor is only 80 kW, so they aren't pushing the limit of the battery discharge capacity, but an 80 kW generator on board is still out of the question.
Evening fellas- and gal- enjoyed the show. This was the first time I had the opportunity to hear Chris Paine speak- very enjoyable, very even. I wish him much success with his sequel.
It looks like the Leaf pricing for the US is already affecting others- Mitsubishi is now dropping hints that their IMiev will now cost less than $30,000 here- I think this is WAY below what they were originally going to set as their price. I would not now be surprised if the Volt starts in the low to mid 30's rather than the $40,000 price everyone has been predicting. But there have been inklings that EV pricing may be a bit lower anyway, as Li-ion battery costs have come down already.
Must agree with Shannon- everything I have read suggests that an efficiency meter in cars will be a hit with drivers, whether this meter is in an ICE or EV auto- and if- no, when- gas hits $4 a gallon soon, people will be glad to have an aid in their cars to save energy.
Not to throw more fuel on the fire (or sunshine on the solar collector), but I wonder if Rick is just speaking of Home Generators being used in a car, and not of, like the Volt, a small car engine being used as a generator- because when the Volt battery is down to it's 30% threshhold, it will be that gas engine providing the energy for the electric motor to drive the Volt. I think that the engines built for cars are both more complicated and more powerful than the generators you buy for your home use. See? A reasonable explanation for this seeming dichotomy of diverse views. Now play nicely children;-)
Paul, you make an excellent point regarding the range extending generator and battery pack in the Volt. A generator can only work in an EV with an on board battery. The Volt's on board computer turns on the genset when the pack reaches 30% SOC. this is done in order to prevent further discharge and to provide ample reserve SOC for accelerarting from 0 mph to cruising speed in an amount of time that would be considered reasonable. The genset's sole function is to maintain a 30% - 35% SOC and not to provide electrical power for propulsion to the car. It's the battery pack's job to provide that electrical power. To get a good acceleration rate in a car (0 to 60 mph) with a curb weight of 3520 lbs (Volt's curb weight) and a series cicuit genset electric motor only, no battery pack, you would need a genset capable of 100,000 watts to get somewhere around 10.5 seconds which is a large part of why I stated in feedback that direct series connected generators to the electric motor is not practical in a car. Rick, from the declining oil Capitol and emerging EV Capitol of the world. :-)
I can't wait for the next "who killed the electric car" You are reading a note from one of the few people that do not believe in the Chevy Volt Hybrid. I don't trust GM as far as I could throw them. Chevy demoed the volt last Monday at pier 92 in New York city. Some officials showed up and rides were given. I personally did not attend but, my club members did ( New Jersey Electric Auto Assoc). The car is supposed to sell for between $40 and $50,000. The price of the battery was not mentioned, but I will bet it is leased or an extra purchase. It looks good for the leaf. Keep an eye out for BYD. We haven't heard too much yet. When they hit the sales market I'm sure the price war will start.
